(04/22/1998 - 13:41:39) The Bible tells me so PT 2, TomC (04/22/1998 - 21:15:08) -------------------------------------------------------- The Bible tells me so PT 2 Posted by TomC on 04/22/1998 at 21:15:08 I'm back. Well if anyone wants to continue the discussion from my previous thread, let me know. Deuteronomy 17:6.... Who is 'worthy of death'., TomC (04/22/1998 - 21:23:07) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal Salvation?, TomC (04/22/1998 - 21:28:25) -------------------------------------------------- Universal Salvation? Posted by TomC on 04/22/1998 at 21:28:25 Does the Bible really teach that there is an eternal hell? If so where? Or does it teach universal salvation as many believe? Or does the Bible, perhaps, contradict itself on this issue? RE: Universal Salvation? Hosea Ballou, TomC (04/22/1998 - 22:22:10) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there a 'hell' taught in the Bible?, FRWC (04/23/1998 - 02:14:14) -------------------------------------------------------------------- On 04/22/1998 TomC said: >Does the Bible really teach that there is >an eternal hell? If so where? FRWC) Hope you don't mind but I'd like to break this line of questions up. It's late and I still have a few more hours to put in on some work but I wanted to answer this part of your question first. I don't know when I'll get the chance to if I don't take it now. In Mark 9:43-48 in six short verses Jesus spoke of 'hel' three times and 'fire' six times. Jesus believed in a everlasting hell for this is why He left heaven and came to earth. It was for all of us. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus spoke of a rich man and Lazarus. Many people believe this is a parable, others do not. I do not. In all other parables used by Jesus He never used a name so why would He have done so in this parable IF it were a parable? Understand every place you read the word'hell' in the Bible it doesn't always mean a place of fire. To have a correct understanding of hell it is necessary that we have a scriptural understanding. The Hebrew word sheol is found 65 times in the Old Testament. Of that 31 times times it is translated hell, 31 times grave, and 3 times the pit. The Greek corresponding word in the New Testament is hades. Hades and sheol mean 'the unseen state ... the underworld', the place where the unbelieving dead go at death and where they remain until the resurrection of the body. The bottoless pit is gehenna and it is found in the New Testament. Scripture clearly tells us hell has gates (Matthew 16:18) Jesus has the keys. (Revelation 1:18) Before Jesus rose the devil had the keys. (Hebrews 2:14-16) How'd Jesus get the keys? (Read Ephesians 4:8-10) You'll also find hell's location. One other thing... In 1492 when ole Chris wanted to prove the earth wasn't flat...he sailed off and many thought he was a goner. I can hear them on the shore taking bets now. 'I bet Chris will be gone in one hour falling off the edge'. Oh I can hear them. But you know, if the Bible had been available to them like it is to us today, they would have had no question about the shape of the earth. For Isaiah 40:22 clearly tells us.....the earth is a sphere. How'd Isaiah know that? predestination or free will?, TomC (04/23/1998 - 03:47:23) ---------------------------------------------------------- predestination or free will? Posted by TomC on 04/23/1998 at 03:47:23 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. The way I see it, if there is an eternal hell, then the idea of predestination contradicts the idea of free will. Christians are divided into two camps on this issue. If God wills the salvation of all men, then predestination to hell can not be true. Yet what about Romans 8:29-30: --- (Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.) If I am reading these verses correctly then God wills all to be saved, and if He predestines all who are saved, then it would have to follow that He would predestine Everyone, that is He would save all, and nobody would be lost. Other verses which suggest universal salvation: 1 Corinthians 15:22 Psalms 65:2 Psalms 145:21 John 12:32 Peace RE: predestination or free will?, FRWC (04/23/1998 - 09:29:56) On 04/23/1998 TomC said: >1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our >Savior, > >1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the >knowledge of the truth. > >The way I see it, if there is an eternal hell, then the idea >of predestination contradicts the idea of free will. Christians >are divided into two camps on this issue. If God wills the salvation >of all men, then predestination to hell can not be true. Yet >what about Romans 8:29-30: >(Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed >to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many >brethren. > >Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom >He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also >glorified.) > >If I am reading these verses correctly then God wills all to be saved, >and if He predestines all who are saved, then it would have to follow that He would predestine Everyone, that is He would save all, and nobody would be lost. > >Other verses which suggest universal salvation: > >1 Corinthians 15:22 >Psalms 65:2 >Psalms 145:21 >John 12:32 > >Peace FRWC) Thought I'd check this out before I left for the day... Predestination....In God's plan He desires that we all come and accept His Son Jesus Christ as LORD. He does not desire that any of us be separtated from Him (God). The choice is up to you, to accept or reject. If a person rejects Him, then the person is not one who is a member of God's family. In order to be a member of the family you must accept the member of the family who died in your place. Our nature, as people on this earth, is made up of flesh and bones,that which dies, rots, and returns to dust. When we accept Jesus Christ,death no longer separates us from God. As a believer in Jesus Christ we accept His death as our own. Death no longer has a meaning to a Christian, because death is a separation from God. Acceptance of Jesus, is to accept eternal life. Death and life cannot live together. In the garden of Eden (you know 'the apple story' as one of my sons use to call it) we learn something very revealing about God. (Really we learn a lot about God in the first 5 chapters) God put man in the garden and God planted 2 trees, one- the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the other- the tree of (eternal) life. God dwelt with man, and man knew God so well that he recognized His footsteps when man heard God walking. Of the tree of knowledge God told man 'do not eat' or you will die that day. Man ate of that tree, did man die that day? Did Adam and Eve die that very day? As some understand death (a person no longer has brain waves) Adam could not have died that day for he continued on to have children, but as God sees death (a life separate from Him) Adam and Eve died that day. No longer did God walk with them in the garden, no longer did they hear His footsteps. The Bible tells us God's way is not our way. Death to God means something different than what it means to us. Death to God means a life separated from Him. This, God did not choose for man, man chose for it for himself. Also note, however but very important, there was a second tree. The tree of eternal life. God did not tell man that he could not eat from that tree, man chose death over life even though life was free and open to take even after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In fact God blocked the way to the tree of eternal life so man could not eat of it at that time. Why? Good and evil cannot live together, neither can life and death. Where is that tree of life now? According to Revelations 22:2 it's in paradise (Heaven). Who was the tree of life, who must we, as mankind, partake of in order to have eternal life? Who is it we symbolically partake of when we take of the bread (as His body) and drink the wine (His blood)? Who is it that said, 'Believe on Me and you shall have life eternal'? You see Satan likes us to think about today and hang tomorrow, but God asks that we think of today, tomorrow and forever. Satan demands that we 'do our own thing', God asks us to come to the knowledge that this life here on earth is only a breath long and then it's gone. Where we go after this life, is our choice. God predestination for us is life (with Him) not death (without Him) but just as in the garden we make the choice (free will) God only gives us the way (Jesus Christ). RE: I am surprised at you, Don H. (04/23/1998 - 10:52:48) RE: RE: I am surprised at you -Thank you., FRWC (04/23/1998 - 15:13:39) 1 Timothy 4:10, TomC (04/24/1998 - 21:06:58) The Saviour of all 'men'?, TomC (04/24/1998 - 21:22:52) ------------------------------------------------------- On 04/24/1998 TomC said: >On 04/24/1998 TomC said: >> >>
>>> >I wanted to try posting a link to a Bible Browser page. It worked. >I also think that this verse is interesting in terms of the topic at hand. >> >> > RE: 1 Timothy 4:10, James P (04/25/1998 - 01:34:11) Link for those who wish to debate religion, TomC (04/22/1998 - 21:42:51) What about Leviticus 20:13?, TomC (04/22/1998 - 21:54:51) --------------------------------------------------------- What about Leviticus 20:13? Posted by TomC on 04/22/1998 at 21:54:51 Leviticus 20:13 'If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.' Does anyone think that this would be a good idea? If not how can it be claimed that the Bible is innerrant? It is verses like this one which make it impossible for me to believe in the WHOLE Bible, although parts of it are ok. RE: What about Leviticus 20:13?, James (04/23/1998 - 00:21:23) RE: Great answer!! ROTFLMAO (NB), Don H. (04/23/1998 - 12:38:10) The old and the new!!, ocos (04/23/1998 - 00:24:57) RE: The old and the new!!, TomC (04/23/1998 - 00:39:00) ------------------------------------------------------- RE: The old and the new!! Posted by TomC on 04/23/1998 at 00:39:00 '' Are you truly wondering about this verse contradicing some others, say in the NT (New Testament) or are you just trying debate the infallability of the bible?'' The question is: if the Bible contradicts itself how can one claim that it is infallible? As for the rest of what you said, if the new cancels the old, is the old still part of the infallible Bible? The 10 commandments is part of the old. Jesus did not invalidate them. Jesus said nothing, as far as I know about Leviticus 20:13. As far as where I am coming from in all of this; first the explanation about the Bible which makes most sense to me is that it is not to be taken literally; that it is a parable. I do not believe that the Bible is the Word; I am only human however, I can not speak for God, I could be wrong. I just don't think that anyone can prove to me otherwise. RE: RE: The old and the new!!, FRWC (04/23/1998 - 01:41:46) ----------------------------------------------------------- On 04/23/1998 TomC said: >'' Are you truly wondering about this verse contradicing some others, say in the NT >(New Testament) or are you just trying debate the infallability of the bible?'' > >The question is: if the Bible contradicts itself how can one claim >that it is infallible? As for the rest of what you said, if the >new cancels the old, is the old still part of the infallible Bible? FRWC) The word Bible (which by the way won't be found in the Bible) means book. Yes, ever bit of the book is the Bible. However, the Old Testament is living proof we need the New Testament. In the Old Testament the Laws (of God)were on tablets of stone, but in the New Testament the Laws (of God) are in our hearts and mind. (Hebrews 10:16) What you quote is from a group of laws that no longer apply but had been part of God's direction to the new. >The 10 commandments is part of the old. Jesus did not invalidate >them. FRWC) Jesus gave us 2 commandments: 1)Love your God with all you heart, mind and soul and 2)Love your neighbor as yourself. In these 2 Jesus said are all 10. Jesus said nothing, as far as I know about Leviticus 20:13. FRWC) Paul wrote: 'He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?' (Hebrews 10: 28,29) We are no longer under the law you quoted but under grace. These is no contradiction here. >As far as where I am coming from in all of this; first the explanation >about the Bible which makes most sense to me is that it is not >to be taken literally; that it is a parable. I do not believe >that the Bible is the Word; FRWC) No the Bible teaches us the Jesus Christ is the Word. (John 1:1 & 14; Revelation 19:13) However do you mean was the Bible written containing God's instructions, wisdom, knowledge, etc.? I am only human however, I can not >speak for God, I could be wrong. I just don't think that anyone can prove to me otherwise. RE: Paul had a lot to say about it, Don H. (04/23/1998 - 12:46:27) RE: RE: Paul had a lot to say about it, FRWC (04/23/1998 - 15:31:38) On 04/23/1998 Don H. said: >FRWC said [on homosexuality]...'Jesus said nothing, as far as I know about Leviticus 20:13.' > > >((Don) I don't know if you mean to say that because Jesus never directly talked about homosexuality that it is OK. Jesus did speak approvingly of the destruction of Soddom and Gemorrah. He also said that in the beginning God... > > 'created them, male and female, and for this purpose a man shall leave his mothet and father and shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.' > > Sounds to me like Jesus did not approve of homosexuality. Paul flatly condemms it numerous times in the New Testament. FRWC) I did not mean that Jesus approved of homosexuality, but that Jesus did not tell us to 'put to death' homosexuals. This was the 'old law' not the 'new law'. Jesus most certainly did not approve of anything that was contrary to God's laws. God's laws were given to actually prove to us even if we obeyed all of them we still had to deal with the fact that once a year we had to offer up a sacrifice to remove sin. It was not permanent. Life for life was required in order for the sin to be removed. Jesus exchanged His sinless life for our sinful one. This includes homosexuals. Does this mean they can continue in that life? No it does not. You, as a Christian certainly know you are not the same now after salvation as you were before salvation. We don't bring the change but the Spirit which abides in us brings the change. However, TomC was asking about something which was an old law, the old covenant, which we as Christians are not under. We have a fulfilled law, a new covenant, which is Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 8:7-13) RE: I agree...thanks for the clarification (NB), Don H. (04/23/1998 - 20:52:52) Does Paul carry as much weight?, TomC (04/23/1998 - 21:31:34) --------------------------------------------------- Does Paul carry as much weight? Posted by TomC on 04/23/1998 at 21:31:34 Does what Paul what said carry as much weight as what Jesus said? I would expect those of you who have responded so far would say 'yes', but I ask the question anyway. I ask the question as a general issue, not specifically in regard to homosexuality. RE: Does Paul carry as much weight? He isn't as heavy as he once was!, FRWC (04/23/1998 - 22:37:05) On 04/23/1998 TomC said: >Does what Paul what said carry as much weight as what Jesus said? > >I would expect those of you who have responded so far would >say 'yes', but I ask the question anyway. I ask the question >as a general issue, not specifically in regard to homosexuality. FRWC) If I were to say yes, would you then question why or how? You expect the answer to be yes, can you tell me why you expect the answer to be yes?>>1Tim 4:10 >> >>>>
RE: RE: Does Paul carry as much weight? He isn't as heavy as he once was!, TomC (04/24/1998 - 00:19:58) ------------------------ RE: RE: Does Paul carry as much weight? He isn't as heavy as he once was! Posted by TomC on 04/24/1998 at 00:19:58 The point of the question is that Paul was a man, and Christians believe that Jesus is Divine. On the other hand Paul's letters are considered to be part of God's Word and therefore I would expect at least in one sense they would be considered as true as what Jesus himself said. So therefore I would expect a 'yes' answer, but not be surprised with a different answer. See below on Luke. (nb), FRWC (04/24/1998 - 00:29:34) RE: The Bible tells me so PT 2- Deuteronomy & Leviticus, FRWC (04/23/1998 - 01:06:14) On 04/22/1998 TomC said: >I'm back. Well if anyone wants to continue the discussion >from my previous thread, let me know. FRWC) Hi Tom. Looks as if many don't mind discussing what they think concerning the Bible. You used two passages from the books (Deuteronomy and Leviticus) which are the old testament. In the old testament there were well over 600 Levitical laws in which the Jewish people had to obey. Beginning with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John we have the 4 Gospels (means Good News). These four Gospels tell us about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. From Acts on, we have the books of the Bible that is for the Church that builds it's foundation on Jesus Christ. Therefore, we learn in the New Testament that, 'Old things are passed away;and behold, all things are become new.' (II Corinthians 5:17) Therefore, we are under a new law (covenant) not under the old law (covenant). This is also explained in Hebrews Chapter 8,9 and 10. Do you have a study Bible? This might assist you in your searh. One can be obtained at any Christian Book Store. Luke 9:49,50, TomC (04/23/1998 - 21:58:13) ------------------------------------------ Luke 9:49,50 Posted by TomC on 04/23/1998 at 21:58:13 Luke 9:49 Then John answered and said, 'Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.' Luke 9:50 But Jesus said to him, 'Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is for us.' This passage has always interested me. It suggest to me that anyone who follows Christ is a Christian, not just evangelicals, not just Catholics, anyone, including those who belong to less 'orthodox' sects. It also suggests that being Christian is not necessary for salvation, all that is necessary is to not be against Christians. Also, the parable of the good Samaritan suggests that being Christian is not necessary for salvation. RE: Luke 9:49,50, FRWC (04/24/1998 - 00:26:56) > >Luke 9:49 Then John answered and said, 'Master, we saw someone casting >out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow >with us.' > >Luke 9:50 But Jesus said to him, 'Do not forbid him, for he who is not >against us is for us.' > >This passage has always interested me. It suggest to me that anyone >who follows Christ is a Christian, not just evangelicals, not just >Catholics, anyone, including those who belong to less 'orthodox' >sects. FRWC) This is really in 2 parts so I split it here. First the word Christian. Do you know what it means? It means Christ like(ness). It was a word given to the first followers of Jesus as a 'put down'. What does the phrase 'to follow Christ' mean to you? Is it just follow along behind Him like a shaddow? So when you say, follow Christ, what are you meaning? Second: This passage Luke 8:49,50 is given in more detail in Mark 9:38-41. Verse 38 starts out 'And John answered him'...Let's stop there for a minute. It seems to me that if John answered him there must have been a question before hand, right? What's the question? For the answer to what the question was we have to go to Mark 9:33 where Jesus asked: 'What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?' The disciples were arguing which one of them was 'the greatest'. Jesus then said 'whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him who sent me.' Jesus also told the disciples 'If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant to all'. Why do you suppose that would be? (I believe it might just be because the desire is upon ones self, not God) Then John asked the question about those casting out devils in Jesus' name. Humm... they didn't say in the name of a tree, a dog, a river, one of the disciples...but in the name of Jesus. Then Jesus said,'Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name , that can lightly speak evil of me.' It also suggests that being Christian is not necessary for >salvation, all that is necessary is to not be against Christians. FRWC) What the above then suggests is it is NOT Christians...it is Christ. Christianity is a result of believing in Christ the Lord. To try and understand the difference between these people who were casting out demons in Jesus' name let's also look at Acts 19:13-16. In these verses we learn that 7 sons of Sceva who called over to some who had 'evil spirits' (they were going to try and cast them out). These 7 sons had just seen 'God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul'. They decided they could do it too. So they said to the evil spirit..'We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth'...come out of him. The evil spirit said back to them: 'Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?' This evil spirit them left the man it was in and leaped on these 7 sons stripping them of their clothes and beating them to a pulp. I also would say this answers your question about Paul. What was the difference between the 7 sons of Sceva, and those who cast out demons by the name of Jesus? It is in the receiving of Jesus. Proverbs 14:15 , TomC (04/24/1998 - 01:46:17) Proverbs 14:15 Posted by TomC on 04/24/1998 at 01:46:17 Proverbs 14:15 The simple believes every word, but the prudent man considers well his steps. FRWC, Thank you for your responses to date, I have not said so before, but I commend your on your ability to respond so quickly and answer so many of my comments. :) It is late so I don't have much time right now, but I would just like to comment that Proverbs 14:15 suggests to me that I do not need to believe 'every word' of the Bible. I would be interested in your reaction. Peace RE: Proverbs 14:15 , FRWC (04/24/1998 - 03:00:32) FRWC) Proverbs is again in the old testament and should be remembered as such. When reading Proverbs one should also bear in mind the book of Ecclesiastes. Proverbs is in six parts. The chapter and verse you quote fron is from the part of Provebs (chapters 10-19) that speak to the folly of sin. Proverbs is a collection of sayings by the people of God, with divine wisdom applied to their 'earthy' conditions. The word 'simple' is pethaiy in Hebrew meaning foolish, and the word prudent is aruwn in Hebrew meaning crafty, cunning, subtil and is not used in a good sense. Thus it reads a foolish man believeth every word; but the crafty, cunning man looks well to his going. So I would guess what you are trying to say is it is foolish to believe every written word of the Bible as pointed out in this verse? The problem if this is what you are implying is that the 'word' in this verse is the Hebrew word dabar which means by implication as a matter of something spoken of. When you add this to the fact that these are a collection as sayings of the people concerning earthy matters and then God's wisdom added to them you have to take in the verses surrounding the one you pulled out from Proverbs. Therefore, since chapter 14 is to show the contrast of good and evil shall we then take in the verse before and the one after? Proverbs 14: 14-16 says The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways; and a good man shall be satisfied from himself. The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. A wise man fearth, and departh from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident. Thus your verse is saying that a foolish person believes everything they hear, and a cunning person watches what he does (so he can get by with it).
What does this teach? , FRWC (04/24/1998 - 09:51:02) hat does this teach? Posted by FRWC on 04/24/1998 at 09:51:02 FRWC) So far you have asked many question in your quest. It is obvious that you are aware of the Scriptures by the questions you ask. It is also obvious that you make a very careful selection of these Scriptures as well. One should also, however, take into view that we can pull many single verses out of a series of verses to try and prove what we want the Bible to say. Is not this also what the Pharisees, Sadducees, Sanhedrin, and Scribes and even Satan, himself also did to Jesus? They sought to trap Him by God's word. I am not saying you are any of the above, but I am saying your 'works' are beginning to give this appearance that this is your purpose. Acts chapter 4 and 5 is what I chose. I am sure there are others far more capable than I who probably could point out something else other than these chapters as to 'proof'. It certainly seemed to me ocos, James and even DonH are able to do so. But this is the chapter the Lord laid on my heart so here goes.... Rather than quote all of these chapters I shall paraphrase. Many people were gathered listening to sermons the Apostles were speaking about Jesus resurrection from the dead. In the crowd were the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees. They watched as the Apostles laid their hands upon the people and as the Apostles spoke many of these people (about 5,000) believed. The next day the high priest, Cariaphas, John, Alexander, and many kindred of the high priest gathered together and went to the Apostles and asked, 'By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?' Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, then preached to these rulers and priest of the temple. He told them that Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom they had crucified, and whom God had raised up from the dead caused them to stand in their presence. Peter told them that Jesus was the stone upon which became the corner stone and Peter then said,'Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby ye must be saved.' (This is the same Peter who just days before had denied knowing Jesus, denied being a disciple...something sure changed him) Now the group of men who heard Peter and John decided that Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men. After all these guys weren't priests, nor readers of the Holy word but they found it difficult to say anything against them. So they huddled together to disuss between them asking, 'What shall we do to these men? For indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem:and we cannot deny it. But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.' Well the threat didn't work. Peter and John told the elders, priests, etc. , 'Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things we have seen and heard.' A little more threatening took place and they were let go. Now in Acts 5 we learn as well that Peter escaping prison kept speaking about Jesus and he and other apostles were arrested again and brought before the high council. The council said, 'Didn't we tell you to stop all this talk about Jesus. Are you trying to tell the people we killed this man?' Peter and the other apostles answered,'We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand, to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things: and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.' Well this didn't go down to well with the leaders and so they thought how they might have these men killed. Now I have laid all this out to bring out the following: Among the council a Pharisee 'named Gamaliel' stood up. He was a doctor of the law and was very well known. He warned the council not to kill these men. He said,'For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about 400, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men it will come to nought: But if it be of God ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.' Here we are nearly 2,000 years later and Jesus' teachings are as alive today as they will be until we all are called home who believe. I have been on the same road you are traveling. Up ahead is a road to the left and one to the right. The road on the left has many footsteps, I can see where mine once were. I know that road. I know what is just around the bend; thorns, thistles, briars, ditches, rocks, high water, etc. The road on the left has only one set of footprints. They are the footprints of Jesus Christ the LORD. Inside His steps are the footsteps of those who chose to walk with Him. One day I chose this road and have never wanted to go back to where I had been. Those who chose the road with His footsteps can tell you they are not the same and never will be again. It is a life that changes, which includes how you talk, walk, and live. It is a relationship that will endure all time, and through eternity. It is personal, is not of the mind, but of the heart. RE: What does this teach? , TomC (04/24/1998 - 22:04:44) -------------------------------------------------------- On 04/24/1998 TomC said: ''I have been on the same road you are traveling. Up ahead is a road to the left and one to the right. The road on the left has many footsteps, I can see where mine once were. I know that road. I know what is just around the bend; thorns, thistles, briars, ditches, rocks, high water, etc. The road on the left has only one set of footprints. They are the footprints of Jesus Christ the LORD. Inside His steps are the footsteps of those who chose to walk with Him. One day I chose this road and have never wanted to go back to where I had been. Those who chose the road with His footsteps can tell you they are not the same and never will be again. It is a life that changes, which includes how you talk, walk, and live. It is a relationship that will endure all time, and through eternity. It is personal, is not of the mind, but of the heart.'' I read your post and choose to quote the last three paragraphs because they give me a better idea where you are coming from. Obviously, all of religion is subjective. I believe, however, that a great many people call themselves 'Christian' because that is how they were raised. I was raised Swedenborgian, and yes I do have a little knowledge of the Bible. Also I have a software Bible which makes it easy to find chapter and verse on either passages in my memory or to find what the Bible teaches on a specific topic. I own a number of different translations and know a little about Greek and Hebrew, but I am sure your knowledge on the Bible is much greater than my own. Discussing these isssues with you has been quite different than trying to discuss at TurnLeft. I have found that many there who say they believe in the Bible, either get angry at the questions which I raise, or ignore the verses I bring up altogether. What I mean by a follower of Jesus is someone who truly accepts the morality, the ethics, and the wisdom of such things as the golden rule and living a 'godly' life. For an intellectual discussion I can cite verses in regard to eternal damnation vs. universal salvation, or the issue of the authority of the Bible and its inerrancy. HOWEVER, when I speak of being a follower of Jesus and/or a 'godly' person I think of such passages as Isaiah 55 or 1 John 4, which speaks of God as LOVE and says that one who hates does not live in God. Also, I can accept the reality of human evil although I do not pretend to understand it. One could argue that since humans can 'sin' against the plan of God, the idea of an eternal hell makes sense. But for me it doesn't make sense that an eternal hell could be part of GOD's plan. Well, that's all for now; Let's see if this link works: UNIVERSAL SALVATION RE: RE: What does this teach? correction, TomC (04/24/1998 - 22:17:06) RE: RE: What does this teach? correction Posted by TomC on 04/24/1998 at 22:17:06 ' One could argue that since humans can 'sin' against the plan of God, the idea of an eternal hell makes sense.' What I meant was: sin which is against the plan of God, not sin against God's plan. In other words it was not originally part of God's plan that anyone would sin, but humans sinned anyway. RE: RE: What does this teach? , FRWC (04/25/1998 - 00:41:47) RE: RE: What does this teach? Posted by FRWC on 04/25/1998 at 00:41:47 FRWC) To carry this conversation just a little deeper...Do you realize that everyone one on the face of the earth past, present and future has eternal life? I know you believe this, if you believe God is in everybody. However, where you end up is up to you. You can have eternal life and be with God or have eternal life which is not with God. However what the Scripture calls this sort of eternal life away from God is death. As I have said this is not the kind of death we, as humans understand. Death to God means living apart from Him. Eternal hell was not made for man, but for Satan and the fallen angels. Those who chose to have Satan go and live in his house. Those who chose to have Jesus go and live in his house. The choice is ours. God is light, Satan is darkness. Darkness cannot live in the light. God is sinless Satan is sinful. Sinful cannot live with sinless. God is the creator Satan is the destroyer. The destroyer cannot live with the creator. God is life, Satan is death. Life cannot live with death. If these cannot live together but each has eternal life (and one of these is unto death) they therefore must be separate. One in one place the other in the other. I am convinced that some plant, others water, and some reap the harvest, but God gives the increase. It is not my place to be all things, answer all questions. I believe I have planted. It is time for someone else to water. RE: The Bible tells me so PT 2 - The Quest , FRWC (04/24/1998 - 11:52:38) RE: The Bible tells me so PT 2 - The Quest Posted by FRWC on 04/24/1998 at 11:52:38 FRWC) I have to head out the door in the next few minutes and will be gone for the day. Getting our porgram ready for our Congressman who is coming tomorrow to speak. But before I left I also wanted to leave you with one more selection. Since I will be very busy I do not know when I can answer you but as I said there are many on this board who can answer most likely better than I. You asked about Universal Salvation. You believe apparently God is in all of us. However as we could see in Acts 19:15 the demons know the name of Jesus and of Paul but they did not know the name of those who used these names to cast them out. Therefore, it is evident that these men were not 'of Jesus', only using His name. We also have a verse in James 2:19 which reads: ' Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.' This verse clearly shows that there are many people who believe the truth, but the Truth is not IN them. Therefore, you thought that God is in us all...is clearly shown as an untruth. Isn't it strange that the devils (demons) know the name of God (Jesus) yet they are devils (demons)? There is a difference in those that believe and those that accept. What do you think that difference is?